Shamanism, Tantra, Dzogchen, Transpersonal Psychology – Professor Elias Capriles

Sometimes we have very beautiful dreams Fantastic dreams

And we feel good We are very happy For example, we dream "I look and see that someone sells tickets to the lottery" "A very, very big lottery

" I buy tickets from someone and come back home And I watch TV And when I look at my number I see the same number on TV too! Then I'm very happy "Oo, what should I do now?" All this money I'm really happy and then wake up

When I wake up, I find it a dream, unfortunately I'm not happy Or before

a very, very ugly dream There are many people who want to kill me And I get to my house

Then they start killing me I'm very afraid At that moment I wake up And I discover: "Oo, it's just a dream!" I am very happy You see? Beautiful or ugly

Even if it's beautiful or ugly, dream is a dream! Unreal As Buddha says, our life is just like a dream A great dream

The night dream is a very small dream, but The dream of our lives has many days and nights, days and nights etc When we discover this

We discover dreams when we wake up But the big dreams are revealed when we die and we are in a state of Bardo (transition state) Yeah a very big dream! Thank you, Professor Elias Capriles, because you are here, now, although you've got a cold in Bulgaria, are not you? Yes I join the club because I have some fever, so it will be a very hot encounter! I also thank Alexander Anton for the chance to have you here You are a very rich person from all points of view, as I see it Very rich, having nothing! You have written many books, more than twenty Then many articles

Be part of International Association of Transpersonal Psychology, yes Then you are a multidimensional thinker, as I see things Multidimensional, ie from philosophy to aesthetics, ontology, art, psychology and especially transpersonal psychology

Tonight, at Spiru Haret University, you will hold a conference on Dzogchen, tantra, shamanism and transpersonal psychology We can not wait for this event Professor, let's get started here The reality What is real? What is reality? Dream, dream state? How do you think real and how you feel, how do you experience the real? I'm thinking about the real size of Lacan now

We can not know the Real It can not be understood, it can not be conceptualized, and so on Yes We could say we are in an illusion, which consists in considering the unreal as real, but, of course, not only in this Just as Chögyal Namkhai Norbu says, life is like a dream and we believe that the dream is reality

Then, when we wake up from the dream – from the great dream, we simply realize that the true condition of reality can not, as you say, be understood by concepts, or explained by words, or illustrated by examples Why ? Because all concepts necessarily exclude something But the real condition of reality does not exclude anything Thus, only when exclusive concepts collapse, we can have that achievement In the Dzogchen Teachings, our practice lies in becoming more and more aware of this true condition, which can not be understood by concepts, explained by words or exemplified

So it is like a revival process of this great dream – The great dream of conceptualization – Yes Listening to you, I was thinking about Jung's perspective I know you studied Jung very well He said we needed a sense We have to find meaning, otherwise life has no value But to make sense, this involves a process of conceptualization in a way

– So these are different methods – Yes In fact, when, for example, Heidegger expressed the perspective of many existentialist philosophers in the 20th century, he talked about the state of feeling "thrown into the world"

When we feel thrown here, we feel that experiences are imposed upon us and then we need an intellectual sense to justify our existence Otherwise, when the existence is heavy, it includes despair So we need to tell ourselves a story that makes sense to our existence However, from the point of view of Buddhism, this is an illusion, because the state of being "discarded" and trying to find a sense of life in terms of concepts and words or symbols are part of the illusion Thus, a Buddha is someone who does not need it to interpret life as a story, because he does not feel that life is imposed on him, but that he is the source of experience, and the flow of experience is Sens which does not need to be conceptualized

Everything that happens is his own energy, the flow of his or her own energy When we are in that state, because we do not feel separated from anything, we are in a state of total plenitude, because we know the meaning behind words and we do not need a conceptual sense And because we are no longer subject to self-hindrance, self-burden, but we are spontaneous perfection Our lives become this, that is, the life of a Dzogchen practitioner is the transition from this great dream that is marked by suffering, which is intrinsic suffering, to this other perspective, which is meaningless beyond words, total plenitude and total perfection I mean, Freud was perfectly right! Religion is a way we can tolerate the existential condition

All perspectives on the world also have this function, to help us tolerate being thrown into the world without any landmark, with nothing And then, Professor, a very silly question, yet: in what is Dzogchen technology to engage in this transition, in this movement with the big "m" from dream to being here? This is a very important question From the point of view of Dzogchen, we can talk about three ways, and one approach is the way of giving up – Wait – Yes

The way of giving up begins with the assumption that there is something outside that will cause our passions and that if these passions take hold of us, we will create negative karma, ie negative circumstances for the future, and we will suffer today So we separate ourselves from this object that causes the awakening of passions – A beautiful girl, for example! – For example, yes! The way of giving up would mean

– Cut the investment somehow – Exactly! There is another approach which is part of the same way of giving up This is mainly Theravada: "I do not

I'm separated from that girl!" In Mahayana we apply antidotes We are not leaving the world but staying in the world and if this girl is an illegitimate consort, we imagine it in disgusting ways

For example, we imagine gastric juices in her stomach, the brain from her head, the A beautiful girl with excrement! Very sexy ! Yes Then these images are supposed to be will serve us as an antidote, and the passions will decrease

That is a process against the idealization Do not idealize a girl, but to imagine it going to the toilet And so it becomes an ordinary object, and the investment decreases

Yes Is this the second way? The second path is the way of transformation These two were two aspects of the first path The first is that applied by Theravada, and the second is that applied in Mahayana OK, but in both, the object is kept away

Yeah, exactly, to prevent the hazards In Tantra we say that passions are like firewood, and wisdom is like fire The higher the passions, the more fire Instead of leaving the girl or imagine it as a disgusting object, we go to the girl and unite with her – Make love

No war – Yes – We make love, okay? – Yes But we do this with a different perspective We are not just trying to find a climax of pleasure which will give rise to a temporary relaxation of tension, but we use the passion to turn it into wisdom, which was, in fact, from the very beginning

Thus, the passion for a girl is discriminatory wisdom, for You do not feel passion, that is, erotic passion, for this glass Not yet ! When we do that, the path will be very easy! So in the first moment, this erotic passion is discriminatory wisdom and then becomes a wish for the girl, and then, when we begin to have a normal relationship, we may feel floating when we just hold our hands, but then we get used to it and the feeling becomes neutral

Then we want to do it more intensely, and we get used to it too Then we want to make it even more intense At some point, we are no longer present, but we want a moment from the future – A promise ! – Yes where we will melt for pleasure, where it will be just pleasure But when that moment comes, we do not want to melt, because it would mean to dissolve ourselves, And then who else would have that experience? There would be no one to experiment! So we want to continue experimenting with pleasure as separate subjects, and then escape us! It's like holding the sand in hand and we would get rid of our fingers, and then we put our nails into our own flesh In Tantra we change that perspective, and we remain all the time today and we are also supposed to retain our essence In this way we can come to a state in which we have total pleasure – due to heat stimulation, total clarity – due to our view as a deity in yab-yum, erotic mystic union and emptiness – which means lack of substance, which is related to the fact that, retaining the essence and, however, engaging in erotic pleasure, there is more and more energy coming to the higher centers and our consciousness becomes more panoramic

Usually, we have this figurative mind which separates the object and considers it in its own right, a glass in itself Now, with this broader perspective, it becomes obvious that it is not separate, that it does not have its own existence – and this means emptiness This is the second way Remarkable! We know so little about Tantra When we hear about Tantra, it's very erotic and that's all! But here is a profound technology: we integrate, we live and only then try to do something with it

Yes ! I think most of us are trying to run, as a defense mechanism And we have fantasies, etc, but we do not live our lives We are afraid to do things, and then we have the ethical and moral aspects, etc We can already see what you said, yes

Transformation is something very difficult, very few of us can afford this, to see the game, yes Thank you ! Why is "transformation"? Because we need to transform our vision of the world as substance in a vision of the world as a mandala – the palace of an immaterial deity – as a great hologram, and we turn into a deity Then we produce these three very powerful experiences and, based on them, we can return our vision, to reverse the direction of our perception, not to focus on experiences, but to return to consciousness who is aware of those experiences and which is nondual and nonconceptual and that does not change Then we can use these changing experiences to discover our true condition This is the second way

Please, Professor, so to discover the observer, the witness, the one looking, That Many are trying to find this observer, but it is impossible to feel the contour, it looks like space! Exact For example, Rene Descartes felt threatened by the new pyramids, which undermine beliefs in substance, of religion, so he thought: "If I apply another method," "I may find another reality that we can not doubt" Yes, the unmistakable ground of reality Yes

And then after doubting everything, he had the intuition that he is the thinker of thoughts and used this as the basis for his system He said there was a <i> res cogitans </ i> which is the subject, the soul, which does not occupy any space and which has no form and an outer world that is spatial Yes, <i> res extensa </ i>

and has colors, shapes, etc He believed this view and turned it into the basis for all things

Now this was his projection When we turn to this consciousness, this consciousness is not a mental subject, but we only have this impression Thus, when we try to find it, it can never appear as an object, because she is the one who seems to perceive the object! When we turn the perception, this dualist experience can collapse When it collapses, there is a possibility as the true condition of consciousness – nondual and nonconceptual – to manifest itself That consciousness is not separated from anything, so this sense of lack of fullness which was due to our sense of separation to the totality dissolves instantaneously, and the self-sacrifice and self-burden that owed our attempt to control our actions in a dualistic way they collapse too! And then, we have fullness and total perfection, this being one of the meanings of the word "Dzogchen" which is the third way that we have not discussed so far

Yes A short video follows, but before that, Professor, I want to move my hand, but who wants me to move my hand? Are all my movements spontaneous? All thoughts, all phenomena are spontaneous or the subject "I" does it? They are spontaneous, but we have the impression that the subject is acting Thinking simply happens It was a German philosopher, Lichtenberg, who said: "Instead of saying we think," "we should say that there is a thought, or that a thought is going on" The problem is that when a thought happens, we have the impression that we think – and that's our illusion

Everything happens spontaneously, but I feel like I have to control and, trying to control, I interfere with my subjectivity I think we can give a Romanian example I do not know how to say his name Nadia Comăneci? She received twice, at the Olympics, the 10th, 10th For the first time in history, perfection Yes So, she somehow did not have that self-interference She has created that custom in such a way, that there was no need to control it

He could simply abandon himself He had repeated these things many times Other people may have had such thoughts: "Oh, I'm following everybody in my country" "It could hurt everything" That doubt spoils everything

But she managed twice in a row to receive 10 to 10 to 10, let this happen spontaneously So we can interfere with this natural spontaneity? Yes But when we interfere with this natural spontaneity, is not it also a spontaneous interference? Of course! That's right, but it's a spontaneous interference which produces bad results Is it a result? No, but that produces bad results, because in that case our actions are imperfect and we often do the opposite what we want to achieve Yes, yes

So there are good and less good actions? Can we choose between them if we know? That you say? Not What I say is rather that, when choosing between good action and bad action, we are self-aware and whatever kind of action we do, we will not do it perfectly As long as we have the false impression that we are agents of action, we are subject to self-sabotage, self-loading, and then our actions will not be perfect

The problem is that we consider the subject of the action? Yes exactly ! Sorry, but we have to see the movie now Who said that ? Very good mud here Incredibly! When I met my master, Changchub Dorje, I felt a little strange, because every day I did something with him

Something But he did not give me Teachings Then I said, "Please give me an Initiation" He said, "No, you do not need any Initiation" I asked him, "Why do not I need it?" "Because," he said, "I already gave you the Initiation

" "When did you give me?" And then he said, "When you arrived here " That day, he had a dream in which he gave me all the Initiations Then I said, "But this is your dream, not my dream!" "Please give me an Initiation

I need something concrete!" Then, in the end, he decided to give me an Initiation The first formal Teaching that I received from him it was not that difficult to do But Changchub Dorje was not a learned person He had no studies It was very difficult for him to read a book, for example

It took a long time So I received this Initiation from him throughout the day Then I was very happy and I said, "Thank you very much!" "Now I'm going home" "I am very satisfied

" He said, "I did not do anything" Then I felt very strange He said, "Wait Stay" And then, slowly, he explained and really introduced me into the understanding of Dzogchen And I have discovered that all my concepts, all my ideas

were intellectual There is nothing left of them And everything collapsed

Yeah, when it all collapses, it just laughs Yes, because in Dzogchen the principle is spontaneous release There is no renunciation, no transformation If we give up, we assume the substance of that thing to which we give up If we transform, we assume the substance of that thing which we transform

In Dzogchen, the true condition is introduced directly and everything is collapsing Then all the filters we used to perceive reality they collapse And we have an unflinching experience of the true condition This is called Direct Introduction and is the beginning of the path That was what Rinpoche received at that moment from his master, Changchub Dorje

Then we need to return to that state because after the introduction, the rational mind begins to function again And it brings doubts Returning to direct entry status we can come back again and again We arrive at the point where, even in the rational mind, we no longer have any doubts And then we can continue in that state

In this case the principle of spontaneous release applies Well, all these were spontaneous releases, but only then begins the path, the true path That is, whenever a thought arises and we are deceived by the content of the thought, we look ahead and because we already know Dharmakaya, the mind of the Buddha, which is the true condition of all phenomena, and because the true nature of thought is Dharmakaya, we look into this thought, Dharmakaya is manifested, and the thought itself frees itself This is a spontaneous release If it is a passion – passion is still a thought, but a thought filled with very intense energy

For example: "That man is very bad" This is not a passion "That man is very bad!" This is a passion But it is the same It is the thought that that man is very bad

Thus, when the thought frees itself, if it is a passion and has a lot of energy, this is a very good thing, because the degree of neutralization of karma is also higher Nothing to do No purpose No teaching No sermon

No student Everything is useless We're at the end of the road There is nothing else to do or achieve – This is the consequence

– Yes That is, nothing, absolutely nothing, but for someone this situation may seem like at the cemetery Like a process of death In a way, it is a death of the ego It is a process of death by which we become more alive than ever

Because before we experience everything through our filters, conceptual filters So we did not really experience life I had a very faded, matte experience, because I was looking through these concepts which fades and worsens reality Moreover, we were afraid of pain and we were afraid of death I was out of my life and we were taking refuge somewhere, we did not want to really get into life

And now, finally, when this "me" separate collapses, we are totally alive So, we need to die of what is false, to discover what is true We need to die to the dream, to wake up from the dream, to discover true reality Of course, the separate self with which we identify may be frightened by his disappearance, but what disappears is suffering, dissatisfaction, lack of fullness, imperfection What we get is total completeness, total plenitude, and total perfection and real life, absolutely intense and truly lived

Yes we try to keep it intact all the negative phenomena that represent the ego I was thinking, Professor, of ordinary human relations and, for example, psychotherapy

The patient or client comes to you It's because you promised him that after this process, it will go well Then sit face to face, or on the couch, etc Sometimes he is very passionate, angry, even to the therapist, and the therapist, to tolerate this tension, has a theory A theory that allows him to stay there, a theory that in turn is a promise: "good, now I tolerate this contratransfer," "but in the future, if we elaborate, it will be much easier, so I can tolerate

" In fact, all our ways bring us to be here and now, no matter what internal or external phenomena we perceive Something like that ? Yes Of course, what you say in the field of therapy is completely true The analyst usually protects, that is, it is very difficult to make the ideal therapy you are referring to, because the therapist is not a realized being He has fears, like everyone else

And hopes And he's trapped in that dynamics So when the patient comes, he has to protect himself To do so, he has the idea that there is something wrong with the patient, which does not exist on their own This is the root of the counter-transfer Freud was talking about

Yes, yes, there is something wrong with the other! But I'm fine somehow! That's why I'm on this chair Exactly, exactly Then the therapist confirms that the other is sick and he confirms himself as being healthy, that is, exorcises their own problems through the client or patient or analyzed In fact, when that happens, the result is very negative Thus, therapy may be positive, may have positive effects, only if the therapist does not have that unconditional desire and if it can simply be completely open with the other

Yes, total presence This is the third force, Carl Rogers's humanistic psychology, etc Perhaps the transpersonal psychology is very close the roots of human psychology To be fully present, fully present with ourselves, with all the phenomena, and so on Let's be there, but sometimes, seeing what we feel

It's like an inner war Observing this is Dharmakaya? Well, no Dharmakaya is beyond observer duality – observed It is the true condition of the mind In Dzogchen we distinguish between the mind and the nature of the mind The mind is the impression that there is someone who is looking at something separate and then accept or reject, project, etc

The nature of the mind is like a mirror in which the reflection capacity is not separated from reflections, so he can neither accept nor reject He can not even design, because there is nothing out there to project Now we have two meanings of the word "presence" The word "presence" can give two meanings in Tibetan One is the "trenpa", which means the dualistic presence, which is also found in the etymology of the term "presence" – "to be in front of something", "pre essens"

This is the first thing he has to learn psychologist or analyst or what we call it But it still feels separate to be analyzed, or client or patient So this is not the state of Dzogchen In Dzogchen we use this dualistic presence When a thought appears, we do not get caught up in that thought that causes another thought and a whole chain of thoughts that will take us up

We use that dualistic presence to recognize that a thought has occurred and to look at the thought and apply an instruction by which the subject-object duality frees itself, we remain in the state of Dharmakaya, which is beyond words, beyond duality and beyond concepts It is the true condition of reality We only have two minutes left, unfortunately So this is the change We use this dualistic vision and then collapse

This is precisely the experiential moment when the duality collapses How so ? I'm trying to catch the flavor of this moment One minute! It is very difficult to explain because it is something which does not fit into concepts, because it is the real condition of reality But we could say that there is a thought, the true condition is recognized and the thought is freed There is another thought and it is released And why do we need a master? Or an initiation? Or a lot of initiations? We need direct transmission, direct input by which the master creates a condition in which our mind can collapse and the nature of the mind can manifest itself Then the true condition of reality becomes completely evident

Yes, so the relationship with the master is important Yes The condition that we can see, taste It is indispensable Only a few very masters can miss the master

It's something so rare, that we can not even consider the case Thank you, Professor Elias Capriles We have to end now Perhaps, in the future, we will meet again here! Thank you very much for the invitation and Alex Anton to create the connection Thank you again

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